INTERVIEW with MARJORIE S. HOLT

U.S. Representative from Maryland's 4th district, 1973 through '86

Recorded by telephone on Wednesday, January 20, 2010

ALSO SEE: http://womenincongress.house.gov/member-profiles/profile.html?intID=108

STYLE NOTES: All normal text below the line is Holt speaking. Text in italics is by interviewer Frank Gregorsky. Bold and indented paragraphs are editorial sourcing to strengthen both the partisan and congressional history....

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EARLY DAYS, POSTWAR CONFIDENCE

I had dreamed of being an attorney, and of being in the House of Representatives, from the seventh grade.

That's amazing -- not the lawyer part but Congress. Where did you get that idea?

[Laughter] It's funny, because that was in the Dark Ages, you know? But I had a young woman Civics teacher. We did the study of vocations -- what you're inclined to be successful in -- and she encouraged me to want to be a lawyer. I also had a little thing for Thomas Jefferson, and so I thought: "If he could be in the House of Representatives, I can do that too." It took me a long time to get there, but always, in the back of my mind, that ambition stayed alive.

It started with that Civics teacher? Nobody in your family had been in politics?

No. My family was as far away from that [type of career] as anybody could be. They were all Democrats in the South, and part of what you might call the lower socioeconomic class. So the idea came out of that [7th-grade] class -- that vocational study.

You married Duncan Holt in 1946 and entered law school at the University of Florida at Gainesville, earning an L.L.B. in 1949. Were there any other female students?

Five other female students entered that law school when I did. At that time, there were 500 men in that class, and most of 'em were veterans of World War Two -- very highly motivated, which meant the competition was tough.

Can you describe the postwar atmosphere? Housing shortages, fears of another Depression that never came, beginning of the Cold War...

I never sensed [fear of another Depression]. There was a lot of optimism, and a lot of dedication to getting an education and getting out and starting our lives.

As for housing: On the campus, the university provided apartments for the married students; they were converted from Army barracks, and it made for a nice little group of people who had much in common. We started a commissary and most of the focus was on gettin' enough money together to supplement the G.I. Bill stipend of $90 per month. My husband had a rural paper route and we both worked for the University, I in the Dean's office and he painting buildings.

You met him in college?

No. Duncan and I met in Jacksonville, where we both grew up. He flew 34 missions over Germany and then came home to finish his education. We were married on the day after Christmas, 1946.

BUILD THE LADDER BEFORE YOU CLIMB IT

When did you start looking at Republicans as a Party you'd want to be part of?

My husband got a job with Westinghouse, we spent not quite two years in Pittsburgh, and then he was selected to open a new plant here in Maryland. When we registered to vote, we said: "You know, we really do think like Republicans, and right now is a good time to change our affiliation." This was about 1951, and [becoming a Republican] was probably the dumbest thing I ever did [laughter] -- because Maryland is so strongly Democrat.

I think Maryland had a Republican Governor [who nominated Dwight Eisenhower at the 1952 convention]. For some reason Theodore McKeldin rings a bell.

That's right! He was one of the unusual ones. Of course I didn't know anything about Maryland politics at that point. Then we found that, in parts of Anne Arundel County where I would run, the registration was 12-to-one Democrat. They were conservative Democrats, but -- it looked to be tough.

Describe those two decades leading up to winning a House seat at age 52, and how you built a foundation.

I got into local politics right away -- precinct work, and all the kinds of background things that women usually do. We had three children, so I waited until they were in elementary school before I really got active. I had become a member of the Florida Bar, but I had not practiced there, so I didn't have reciprocity in Maryland and had to take the Maryland Bar exam [some 12 or 13 years after we relocated from Pennsylvania]. I started practicing law here in my little community of Severna Park. My husband said he'd stake me for a couple years, and he never had to put anything into it, so I thought that that was successful [laughter].

Did you hang out a shingle and practice solo?

Yes. We did mostly small businesses -- plumbers would get in trouble, and contractors -- mostly that kind of thing. Also, in those days we didn't have [public defenders], so Judges would appoint lawyers to take on criminal cases, and I did a little bit of that. It was just a general practice, and I was still working in the local politics.

What are the positions you held, or tried to get, before going to Congress late in 1972?

I was appointed Supervisor of Elections in '64, and two years before I ran for the Maryland House of Delegates -- that campaign was not successful at all. I found out that nobody wanted to vote for a woman. They said "you're a nice lady, but I can't vote for a woman."

But you did get the nomination -- you made it to November on the general-election ballot?

Right. But we didn't put "Republican" on our campaign literature. We tried to get by without admitting that we were Republicans. It was really pretty bad. And I kept trying to convince the Old Boys that I could be a successful legislator.

Then I noticed this "slot" at the Clerk's office -- the Clerk of the Circuit Court [of Anne Arundel County]. I had worked with a lot of the lawyers and knew how the Office could be improved.

The guy that was in there was one of the old, strong Democrats -- very popular -- and it was the custom to sort of "park" certain Democrats in the Clerk's office: After they had run successfully for the Senate and other things, they'd be "retired" into the Clerk's office. So I thought, "Well, I'll take him on and see if I can get my toe in the door."

The incumbent was Louis N. Phipps; he had been the Mayor of Annapolis as well as State Senator from Anne Arundel County. For more on the Clerk of the Circuit Court, see www.msa.md.gov/msa/speccol/sc3500/sc3520/012500/012563/html/msa12563.html

This was 1966, and I beat him, which nobody thought I could do. All of our party leaders were trying to [pause] "support" me in a way, because they probably thought this'd be a good way to get rid of me [laughter]. Anyway, I won -- and the Clerk's office was a wonderful place to do favors for people, help 'em out in the Courthouse, yet not have to make any tough [policy] decisions. I wrote a lot of notes, did a lot of favors, and built quite an organization. When the fourth district opened up [after the 1970 Census] -- no incumbent -- I said to my friends that it was as if God was saying: "Okay, here it is, it's your time" [chuckling].

Marjorie Holt defeated Werner Fornos by 59 to 41% in November 1972, and Richard Nixon beat George McGovern statewide by 62 to 38%. Holt joined a U.S. House delegation consisting of William O. Mills, Clarence Long, Paul Sarbanes, Goodloe E. Byron, Larry Hogan, Parren Mitchell and Gilbert Gude. Both U.S. Senators -- Mathias and Beall -- were Republicans; and Holt, Gude, Hogan and Mills were the GOP Representatives. But Congressman Mills committed suicide in early 1973, and Bob Bauman won that seat in an August 1973 special election. Going into the '74 elections, the Maryland delegation to the U.S. House was four GOPers, four Dems.

U.S. REPRESENTATIVE from MARYLAND's 4th DISTRICT

You arrive on Capitol Hill -- conveniently close to your district -- right after the Nixon landslide, which looked like a great beginning for his second term, but [thanks to Watergate] turns out to be anything but. Throw in the surge of inflation and interest rates, and we face a rough time there in 1973-74.

Right. Swimming through the sharks. If you supported President Nixon, you were in trouble, and if you didn't support him -- well, you lost 50% of your audience every time you went one way or the other. But I tried to stick with him as long as I could, and then when the whole thing became very clear, we had to say: "He has to go." And I did. I try to forget those years.

And we lost [Spiro] Agnew the year before -- a former Republican Governor of your state, and the case against him [for taking bribes] was even more clear-cut.

Yeah, I know it. The day before it all became evident about him, I was over there introducing him and saying that he was a man of great integrity and I supported him strongly -- and then down he goes. I guess I was na•ve about it, but -- you know, actually, politics in those days came from that kind of [culture]. Anne Arundel County was once called a "banana republic" by a British newspaper. It was the way of the old Democrats. Marvin Mandel [Governor from 1971 through '78] said one time, "If you don't take care of your friends, who do you take care of?" We came from a bad situation, and I think a couple of them got caught on the cusp of the change to a more ethical set of expectations -- Agnew was part of that. Still, I can't imagine anybody taking money in the office of the Vice-President of the United States of America.

What committees did you get on?

I went right onto the Armed Services Committee -- the authorization subcommittee.

Was that hard to get?

It was. Jerry Ford [House GOP leader before he became Vice-President] seemed to want to help me, and it was important for our district. Having never been in the military, and with no military background, I was a little frightened. But I figured: "Darn, my opinion can be just as good as anybody else's, so -- I really want to do this."

Was [Colorado Democrat] Pat Schroeder on the committee then?

Yes. She and I came to the Congress the same year. On diplomatic trips, we would room together. We were very compatible. Of course, we agreed on hardly anything [laughter]. The one thing we had in common is we both felt strongly about improving the lot of the military family -- that was her big thing, and I was ranking on the Personnel subcommittee at one time. We got along well.

Ford became Vice-President before you were even there a year, and then John J. Rhodes [of Arizona] took over, for about seven years until Bob Michel [became party leader]. What do you remember about John Rhodes and his style of leadership?

I thought it was good. He was strong and we followed him. Jerry Ford also was a good leader; he knew what he was talking about, and we felt we should stick with him. As for Bob Michel -- I don't know about him [laughter]. I had a little trouble with him.

We'll get to that. Let's discuss one of your early priorities, maintaining local control of K-12.

From the fax sent to Holt to set up the interview:

<< She led the charge in Congress to end the busing of children to different school districts in order to achieve desegregation. After the 1964 Civil Rights Act granted the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare (HEW) the power to withhold federal money from school districts that did not meet certain racial percentage quotas, busing became a solution for creating greater diversity in schools. Holt called the busing system, which often placed middle-class and primarily white students in poorer schools, "the new racism." "We should get back on the track and start making every school a good school in providing education for the children," she countered.... In 1974, the House passed Holt's measure that prevented HEW from classifying schools by student and teacher racial quotas in order to determine federal funding, a move that Holt believed would end the need for busing. Although it was eventually rejected by the Senate, Holt's amendment set precedent for a proposed amendment to the U.S. Constitution, introduced by Ohio Democrat Ronald M. Mottl in 1979. >>

Busing was the issue I ran on. It was really hot at that point. My opponent, Werner Fornos, was pro-busing. I offered an alternative: "Let's mix up the housing, to get the children mixed in the schools based on where they lived." Bu this whole issue polarized the races. Before busing, our African-American community had been Republican. I did a lot of campaigning in their churches and they helped me a lot. But, after the busing, they all became Democrats.

It was a big issue [and a policy] I thought was wrong and has proved to be a failure. In Prince Georges County, which is close to Washington, by the late '70s there were more all-black schools because the blacks were moving into the good districts and the whites were moving out. And that's what busing did to [residential living patterns]. To me, housing has always been the better course of action: Mix the communities so that --

But what mechanism would the state of Maryland have for that, other than building subsidized housing in certain upper-class school districts?

We already had that kind of approach -- in Columbia and several other communities. Granted, you can't have it in the gated communities, but otherwise it can go a long way to equalize educational opportunities. I offered that as my alternative [to busing] and also advocated making all of our schools high quality.

Now was there a Supreme Court decision that sort of took the wind out of busing as a program? By 1980, I don't remember politicians talking about it at all. Why did it fizzle out?

I just think it failed. I don't remember any [Court] decision; I just think it failed. The whites were moving out, the blacks were moving in, and you wound up back where you were. We were moving more and more toward providing better education for everybody, rather than move kids around. It worked against their after-school activities -- there were all kinds of problems with it.

AIMING to JOIN the HOUSE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP

You did something very gutsy at the end of your first term by trying to get elected chair of the House Republican Research Committee. "Just before the vote" -- and this is quoting from the website www.WomenInCongress.com -- "Minority Whip Robert Michel of Illinois endorsed Minnesota Representative Bill Frenzel, arguing that the conservative bent of the rest of the Republican leaders had to be balanced by a moderate. Though Michel later championed women's participation in the party, some House Members suggested that he did not support Holt's ascendancy based on her gender." At that point, late '74, we were down to 140 Reps. Do you remember what the vote was?

It was pretty bad. Bob Michel didn't like [the fact that I was making the race]. I don't remember a lot about that particular campaign. I do remember the one [six years later].

Right after Reagan was elected, and there's a vacancy in the Policy Committee.

Right -- and I had it sewed up. We were going great guns. In comes Bill Pitts, Bob Michel's "hatchet man" [laughter]. All the other times, he was really good to me. Anything I wanted, he'd get for me -- I got on the Joint Economic Committee, Office of Technology Assessment with Sen. Kennedy -- but they sure wouldn't let me join [the elected House GOP leadership]. So Bill talked Dick Cheney into running for Policy. He'd been over in the White House with Jerry Ford, and came in at the last minute, and just swamped me. Probably the best thing that ever happened to me. Would've been more work.

A lot of times when one of our members makes it into the top leadership -- happened with Michel after '80, and Newt after '89 -- the very next time, they almost get defeated [back home]. Because suddenly they have split loyalties.

Right. Exactly. And that's something I always tried to avoid -- getting too involved in the national area. I came home to my district and spent a lot of time here.

So you've forgiven Billy for that? [laughter]

Oh yeah. It was his boss tellin' him to do it, I'm sure. We got along fine. You know, you don't get angry with people about things like that. Same with Bill Frenzel -- he and I were good friends. And I always tell everybody that "Dick Cheney has to be good, 'cause he beat me" [for the Policy Committee] -- though it's not very convincing sometimes [laughter].

Two other Leadership races were taking place in those weeks right after Ronald Reagan was first elected: A real tight set of contests shaped the House party for the next decade -- for Leader, Guy Vander Jagt versus Bob Michel; and for the Whip's job, Trent Lott versus Bud Shuster.

I supported Vander Jagt and Trent Lott.

Now why did you like Vander Jagt over -- well, I can sorta guess [laughter].

Honestly, I can say that [what happened between me and Michel six years earlier] didn't have anything to do with it. I just felt that Vander Jagt had a better personality and related to people better. Bob Michel kind of ran roughshod over people, and I like to negotiate and "bring people around."

The argument that Michel's staff and allies made [back there in late 1980] was that Guy Vander Jagt is great on the campaign trail but we need someone on the Floor to carry out Reagan's agenda -- legislative tactician, a nuts-and-bolts guy. That didn't persuade you?

No.

Mike Johnson says that had Reagan not been elected, he doesn't think Michel could've become Leader. Without Reagan, the House Republicans would have needed a compelling articulator like Guy Vander Jagt. But, with Reagan headed for the White House, and being the best communicator around, why would we need another one in the House?

I guess that sums it up. But I didn't relate [the choice in that Leadership contest between Michel and Vander Jagt] to having the articulator in the White House. I just figured the articulator on the Floor could bring more people around than someone who was trying to strong-arm 'em and manipulate.

Trent Lott is the only person in American history to ever have served as a party Whip in both houses of Congress --

And he was good at it. That's probably why it happened. He was well-liked by everybody, and when you're liked, that goes a long way in trying to whip up the votes. Trent came to the Congress at the same time I did. We were very, very good friends.

Well, Bud Shuster was also a Class of '72 Republican.

Right, and -- well, and I liked Bud, too. We got along fine. But I didn't think Bud had the ability to deal with people the way that Trent did. Trent's always smiling, always "hail fellow well met," and everybody liked him. Bud wasn't that way.

A colleague of yours who was even more confrontational -- although his Floor tactics were usually shrewd and had a good conservative cause as their motivation -- was fellow Maryland Republican Bob Bauman. He took up where H.R. Gross of Iowa left off, and often worked in tandem with John Rousselot to stop Democrats from abusing the rules. What can you tell me about your relations with Bauman; and how, at the time, did you view his service to the House Republicans by being such a "watchdog" on the Floor?

I admired Mr. Gross [whose last term was her first term] for his parliamentary ability and his wonderful sense of humor. When Bob Bauman came to the House, we soon realized he was the Master Parliamentarian but he lacked that Gross sense of humor. Bob and I worked very closely together, he managing the procedure and sometimes I offered diplomacy that was useful. I was surprised and deeply disappointed at Bob's disclosure and defeat.

Though not formally a part of the House GOP Leadership, the Republican Study Committee, on January 16, 1975, selected Holt as its chair. According to Edwin Feulner's book Conservatives Stalk the House, "her leadership in 1973 and 1974 in opposition to mandatory school busing gained the further attention of conservative members in both parties. In addition, it was candidly admitted that it would be 'a publicity coup' for a conservative Republican group to be the first in the House to elect a woman as chairman, and deemed equally advantageous not to have to high-profile conservative [like Crane, Symms or Rousselot] as the RSC leader... Congresswoman Holt, though considered less controversial, had an almost perfect voting record, and was respected by RSC and non-RSC Republicans alike."

BUDGET COMMITTEE plus DECENT DEMOCRATS

Midway through your second term, you jumped at the chance to become part of the brand new Budget Committee. Was Bob Giaimo of Connecticut the first chairman?

No, it was Brock Adams from Washington State. And I felt the Committee was effective, although it has kind of lost its effectiveness lately.

What drew you to it?

Economics was probably my first love, even over the military. I enjoyed the Budget Committee tremendously -- all that good expert testimony, great economists giving you information. None of them agreed, of course, but you could always find the truth somewhere in the middle.

Another passage from www.WomenInCongress.com:

<< In 1978, Holt countered the Democratic majority's budget proposal by offering an alternative Republican plan, including an amendment that would slow spending by as much as seven percent over the previous year. Although her proposal failed by a 198–203 roll call vote, the practice of offering a substitute budget thereafter became standard strategy for the minority party. >>

Is that true? Jimmy Carter was President by this time and inflation had climbed back to 10%. How "detailed" was your alternative GOP budget? Did it get down to the programmatic level, or stick with aggregates in terms of spending totals and revenue targets and/or limitations?

The passage of the "Holt Amendment," although temporary, was one of the most exciting experiences I had in the House. With staff help, I offered an amendment to reduce the rate of growth of expenditures in the budget. I didn't attempt to get into details for each program, leaving that to the authorizing and appropriating committees. I wanted to set goals to reduce the annual increases and thereby let revenues equal expenditures.

Who were your outside allies -- Chamber? NFIB? NAM? Free Congress? -- or was this entirely an "insider" contest?

I really had no help from the Republican Leadership at first and there were no outside allies. It was simply a good Holt idea. The leadership had always been satisfied to simply vote "No" [on the majority party's budget plan]. As I offered my arguments, it was really exciting to see one Democrat after another decide that it was a good idea. It passed by one or two votes and Speaker Tip O'Neill became very excited and came down to the floor, where he and Jim Wright twisted enough arms to defeat the amendment.

But it awakened our party and we started offering substitute budgets thereafter. The Wall Street Journal and Fortune magazine took note of my efforts. Several candidates who were running for House seats that year told me that they had used the Holt Amendment with the Kemp-Roth tax reduction as a platform.

What about Congress's system for making economic policy today?

We've gotten so parochial, and also partisan, that we've lost sight of trying to solve the problems. It really distresses me.

Who are some of the Democrats you found it easy to work with, even if it was just on one or two issues? People you could trust and collaborate with.

There were a lot -- I couldn't begin to tell you all of 'em. Sonny Montgomery from Mississippi -- we did a lot of things together. Beverly Byron and I worked together all the time. And Sam Stratton was my love [laughter] -- we got along really well. We were usually on the same subcommittees of the Armed Services Committee -- he'd be the chairman and I'd be the ranking. We agreed on many things; he was pretty liberal on social issues, but strong on the military.

During the ceasefire right after the Yom Kippur War, Sam and I were sent to the Middle East by the Chairman of Armed Services. Secretary of State Kissinger didn't want us to go. But we got there and met with Golda Meier, and then we went to Cairo to meet with President Sadat. Sadat was very cold and distant when we got there, but Sam warmed him up. We got him to agree to go to Israel, and Doctor Kissinger said we laid the groundwork for everything that came thereafter. I always felt pretty good about that.

FROM 1982 to 1986

I considered running for the Senate in '82. I had Dick Wirthlin do some polling, and he decided that if I won every vote that every Republican had ever got in the state of Maryland, I could get 51% -- and that was in the tough economic time right after Reagan took office.

Larry Hogan actually got that nomination -- he was our candidate against Sarbanes in 1982.

That's right. And I decided that, since my district was "safe," and I was doin' some good work where I was, it was better to stay there. I've often regretted not running against [Barbara] Mikulski -- I think I could've beaten her [in 1986].

When you decided to retire, and not make a run for the Senate in '86, Reagan was still dominating the agenda, you were in your sixties by that point -- talk about how you made that decision. Was it a close call?

No. I had four grandchildren that came of age to need nurturing. Their mothers were career women. That that's where I was needed more, and where I wanted to be. And I've never regretted it for a minute. I did hate to leave the job, but [those grandkids] are very precious to me, and it was a good choice.

There was no health problem facing you?

No. Heck, no. I'm healthy even now.

That's great. At the same time, we lost your district to the Democrats.

But only by 400 votes! I picked a guy who had been really good in the state legislature -- Bob Neall, a good friend, brilliant guy and wonderful economist. I got money out of Washington, we did everything, but I couldn't get him to campaign. I worked harder on that campaign than any I ever had, and --

It sounds like you worked harder than he did!

Oh yes! He'd hole up in his office, and we couldn't get him movin'. He really doesn't like to campaign -- we've learned that over and over -- and he has since turned Democrat [good-natured laughter]. But he's a brilliant guy.

From the 1988 Almanac of American Politics, page 528: "Republicans...had a strong candidate, urged into the race by Holt, in Robert Neall, who was not only the leader of the small Republican minority in the House of Delegates but also a genuine player in the high-level game of politics played in the State House."

In political history, there are times like the latter 1960s, when LBJ makes a mess of things, Republicans come back strong in '66. It happened again in the late '70s --

And one of those times is right now? [smiling]

That's the question: Are we at the beginning of another "bull market" for Republicans?

Absolutely! I'm all psyched up. I may run for office [laughter]. People are saying, "You gotta run again." Do you think a 90-year-old could get elected? I don't know.

So -- basically -- not only do Republicans need good candidates nationwide, but you really need a Democrat [in the White House] to be screwin' up, it sounds like.

Right, and I think that's what defeated Martha Coakley in Massachusetts. The Democrats [in Washington] screwed up. They gave that [single-state Medicaid-funding boost] to Ben Nelson, and gave organized labor five years before having to pay the tax [on upper-end health plans], and those kinds of deals defeated her.

"IT'S OUR TIME, and IF WE BLOW THIS ONE..."

Now if we [Republicans] can just stop shooting ourselves in the feet, and quit running against each other, and get these bomb-throwers to shut up, and don't harp on social issues when there's no way to compromise -- just work on the economics and stick together.

Well, you were always strong with Henry Hyde when it came to no federal funding of abortion.

Right.

Would you describe yourself as a moderate pro-lifer, or -- how did you handle that issue when you were in the House?

You can't be moderate on that. I mean, you're either "fer" or "agin" [laughter]. There's no middle ground on that. It's one where you just have to suck it up and do the best you can [with your particular beliefs] even if it's tough.

If you have the principle of sanctity of life, you just explain to your electorate, "This is where I'm coming from, and where I gotta stay."

Yeah; right. And a lot of voters won't understand it. But most will go on past it. I stuck to economics, defense, and education. And when they beat up on me because I wasn't strong on "women's issues," I said these are the women's issues.

So you're optimistic about the party's opportunities now?

Oh I think so, I really do. It's our time, and if we blow this one, I don't know what'll happen. Maybe they'll be another party. Maybe they'll come up with a Tea Party.

You don't seriously believe that!

No, I don't. I think we're gonna come back strong. And I want to tell you that I admire your research and ability to understand the issues.

Well, thank you.

That's why I agreed to spend all this time talking to you [laughter].

And I'm impressed that you have a busy schedule. What else have you got goin' on there?

I'm involved in social things; I love to play bridge. We have a Republican women's organization that I helped organize, about 60 years ago, and it's still goin' strong.

Is that a statewide organization?

Yes. I was a member of FRWAAC and several members, including Edna Payne, suggested that we form a Severna Park Republican Women's Club. I, with several members, organized and started that chapter.

"The Republican Women of Anne Arundel County, RWAAC, originally called the Federation of Republican Women of Anne Arundel County, FRWAAC, was formed about the same time as the National Federation of Republican Women, NFRW, in 1937. Edna Payne of Annapolis was one of the founders of both organizations. FRWAAC attracted members from various parts of the county and formed units in Severna Park, Pasadena, and Crofton. These units later became independent clubs and members of the MFRW..."

One thing we didn't talk about is how much Maryland has been an equal-opportunity state [in terms of federal office]. It's amazing how many women have been elected to the House, from both parties. Not the type of state you would think might do that.

Well, they paid me the honor of saying I paved the way, and inspired them, and gave them the courage to run. So I take credit for it [laughter]. Actually, it was an "awakening" -- people began to realize that women could do the job. Helen Bentley had been in the forefront for many, many years doing a very successful job; and Clarence Long was tough to beat, but she finally defeated him [in 1984, in their third contest]. You should get her into this research, because she's neat. She'll tell ya some good stories.

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Uploaded Monday, February 15, 2010